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hi for those of you who don't know who

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John Mack was he was a internationally

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well known and respected psychiatrist

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Pulitzer prize-winning author who risked

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his entire career at 60 something years

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old in the early 90s when he met people

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who were reporting et encounters in

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abduction he met these people and could

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not dismiss them in his own conscience

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in his own awareness of health and

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pathology he knew something was going on

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that he could not put in a box and so he

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saw two to investigate he wrote two

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books on the subject abduction and

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passport to the cosmos so that's a

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little bit about John this presentation

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is not about whether or not people have

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been abducted by aliens

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it is about intelligent gifted and sane

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people who report experiences that defy

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I'm going to refer to these people as

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experiencers and abductees more

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technically correct would be to say

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reported objectives and experiencers but

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I'm going to drop the reported or

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alleged adjectives so I'm going to

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present a list of gifts and challenges

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of people who report these encounters

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and the list itself was written for

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experiencers as a way of saying you're

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not alone there are a lot of other

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people who feel the way you do who have

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had these experiences it's also for

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therapists and other people who work

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with this population and people who are

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interested in the phenomena from the

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inside it's also the list is also

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relevant to people who've had other

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kinds of extraordinary experiences like

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near-death and out-of-body that's been

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mentioned previously drug-induced

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altered states and clean

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and other spiritual awakenings so so

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there are many items on the list that

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will apply to this group and I might

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also add that being human is also an

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extraordinary experience so whether or

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not you fit in the categories name

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you'll see things on the list that you

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can identify with for sure the list is

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not exhaustive and it doesn't apply to

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all experiencers so let's begin with the

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gifts and I'm going to run through these

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really quickly heightened awareness and

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sensitivity multi-dimensional view of

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the universe a recognition of a

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spiritual dimension to life and through

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their experiences special ability is

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very common amongst experiences psychic

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artistic and healing abilities for some

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a sense of choosing the experience

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sometime in the past or the future many

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experience a resonance with our other

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experiences they can pick them out in a

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room and have a sense of connection

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except the personal cost for the greater

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good for some the sense that what

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they've experienced and what they

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struggle with is worth it for the cause

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of evolution knowledge and perceptions

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that defy explanation and a question

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what can they do with what they know and

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feel how can they save this planet the

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question comes through as an inquiry

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okay that question is going to come up

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later under the challenges as well so

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these are some of the gifts and if

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there's time for question people may

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have some more some questions about

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these challenges let me also say before

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I get into the details of the challenges

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in ontological shock that how people

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process these experiences is different

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from person to person there's no one way

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to do it but there tends to be patterns

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so what's coming is

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grouped according to sleep according to

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some of those patterns and also there

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are cultures as someone just mentioned

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about the like Peruvian cultures and

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others that are much more receptive to

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these types of experiences these

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expectations cultural expectations so

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it's less traumatic more easily

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integrated in life but here in the

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Western culture very much it's about

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ontological shock that was John Mack's

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words the state of being forced to

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questioning is cellular it's deep it's

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it's bet deeply emotional its vibratory

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it's palpable

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that that experience of questioning

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their worldview traumatic memories sense

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of being disempowered overwhelmed and

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annihilated a desperation to protect

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themselves and their families and they

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cannot memory loss confusion

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embarrassment denial or dissociation

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very often seen sense of missing time

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unusual physical symptoms such as

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nosebleeds excessive nosebleeds

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unexpected pregnancies and miscarriages

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a sense of being unable to fit in one's

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body being too big to actually get back

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in and the struggle to experience one's

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body is too small markings may be

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nightmares fear of being alone in the

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dark and fear of sleep sleep is no

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longer a sacred space it's been from

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their experience invaded there's no

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protection in that form a fear of being

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crazy and for some actually wishing that

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they were crazy people have come in to

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my office and said I would rather know

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that I

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experience the experiences are

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impossible to integrate into daily life

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we live in a world that it just doesn't

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it just can't exist fearful of this

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other world that is associated with loss

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of control and trauma and then in

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contrast they may also feel a sense of

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grief loss and anger being here they

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want to go home to a world that feels

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more alive more vibrant more connected

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more loving than what they know and for

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many the sense of they don't really

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belong in either world there's no

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satisfying explanation available and so

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there's a lot of frustration and other

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intense emotions that go along with that

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we want to know answers and there aren't

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any I need good ones anyway

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perception of space-time is altered and

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a question why me and a lot of people

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will say to them why you people who know

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why you what's so special about you a

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dual identity a sense of a part of

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themselves that they keep hidden from

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others and even from themselves not to

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be brought forward and I think you know

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many people have this sense just being

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human of a dual identity parts of

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ourselves that we keep hidden and don't

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really bring out this is another level

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of that much deeper much more profound

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in some ways a non human identity

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existing in the past present or future

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real kind of feel of a part of

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themselves that really isn't human and

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actually for some the ability to access

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that part in themselves but limited

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opportunities to become familiar with it

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or to express this identity they try to

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appear non-threatening and normal afraid

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of what others may see and what they

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cannot explain or afraid of being seen

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related to that is being pathologized by

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professionals especially people in my

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profession there aren't too many

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professionals that really accept that

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this is this is the same way of having

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life experience and so there's very few

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resources to help them process or cope

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with what they've experienced they are

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frequently disappointed in telling

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others even close friends difficulty

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sharing themselves fully with close

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friends or partners marriages often

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suffer from people who report these

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experiences because the partner really

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doesn't quite understand and there's a

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gap not just an understanding

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intellectually but an understanding

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energetically and in frequency social

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situations are often uncomfortable or

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unsatisfying there is a compelling

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connection between experiences earlier I

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said on the gifts that there's a

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resonance between experiences or among

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experiences in this particular forum

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there's this compelling connection and

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often wanting to avoid it because it's

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it feels on it's just a sadness to be

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connected so much and then have to leave

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and return to a life in which they can't

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really bring that part of themselves out

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and sometimes those connections will

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also threaten their primary relationship

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there is a gap between old and new

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reality fear of what bridging may mean

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for their lives and I see this in

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experiences that have already done a

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great deal of processing and and even

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speak on the subject and still it's

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still hard to fully bring forward their

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full reality as they they know it or or

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sense it burden of their knowledge

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sensitivity or special abilities not

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easy to live in an insensitive world

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that has no place for you responsibility

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to help change the world but how again

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frustration real sense of I've had seen

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these things I sense these things

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what what do I do with this knowledge

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and what comes after surviving the

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experiences so

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that is the list of gifts and challenges

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and just in closing these this piece

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what I want to say is that for us

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listening or for them to listen with to

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be listened to with their let me start

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that one again to be listened to with

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heart and mind and open heart and open

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mind makes a profound difference for

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people who've had extraordinary

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experiences and it also makes a profound

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difference for those who are doing the

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listening both on a healing level in it

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on an evolutionary level for both

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parties it has been a huge honor for me

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to work with this group of people thank

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you my daughter recently was diagnosed

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with lupus and as you went through those

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lists there I recognized great many of

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those our symptoms of lupus have you

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considered that maybe there might be

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some kind of association there either

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people who have lupus maybe maybe have

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had an experience like you're talking

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about or that it might be as these

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experiences might be a symptom of that

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disease well okay the first part of it I

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wouldn't know if people with lupus have

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or have not had extraordinary

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experiences okay so I I can't really

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answer you know that piece of it as far

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as do experiencers maybe have lupus I

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know experiences who've been experiences

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for you know ages and have no physical

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symptoms perfectly healthy people

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there's also you know families there's a

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history of families reporting this you

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know kids and generations so I wouldn't

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associate it specifically with a

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physical ailment I'm a little concerned

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that you're not dealing with whether

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these people were really sucked up into

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a spacecraft

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as a therapist for example if somebody

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came to you and was having dreams of

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being a Holocaust survivor I say I'm

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just speaking as a physicist who doesn't

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know anything about your field but I

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would think that you would be concerned

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to know whether the person really was a

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Holocaust survivor or was just having an

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anxiety dream so I just want wonder if

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you have any opinions on the reality of

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this seeming hallucination you know

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again I am NOT here to prove I can't say

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has this person to sucked up into a

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spacecraft I can't prove that I don't

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know it what I do know is that they are

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intelligent and sane human beings who

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have no reason in fact they have every

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reason not to report these experiences

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okay and and sitting in the room working

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it's it's a different kind of experience

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than simply working with somebody who

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comes in with a delusion or even you

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know a strange dream thank you very much

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for an interesting presentation I think

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the bullet that got the most attention

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and my attention was the problem people

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have and reintegrating their experience

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in their daily lives

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and certainly you're speaking of the

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Western world obviously because in other

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cultures that's not such a problem it

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seems like in the Western culture you

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have a choice of either trying to put

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the proverbial square peg in the round

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hole of religion or going into

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depression and Orrin seeing

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psychiatrists fortunately you have

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organizations like this one which allow

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an ongoing search and exploration of

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this kind of phenomena which i think is

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very healing and very helpful thank you

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any other questions what yeah we have

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time for one more one of the variables

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that you didn't mention is how often

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abductions happen and having dealt with

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the person who was a frequent flyer or

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abductee for many years

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the issue of frequency I think is a very

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important one

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I remember reading a book on memory that

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there are different psychological

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mechanisms when trauma happens once

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versus repeatedly would you comment I

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think that from from my own experience

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people report different kinds of you

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know frequency once is kind of unusual

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you know people do report one but as

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they get into it and and you know for in

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some four sessions recognize there have

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been other encounters and in terms of

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how much trauma I think there's a lot

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that that is involved in that so for

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some depending on their support system

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the ability to process their experiences

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it could they could have had a lot of

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experience and do quite well around it

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and for some have very little bit and

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and it just kind of takes the world

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apart should I have one last question

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that is you presented a lot of

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conclusions you came to did you use a

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questionnaire or was this all based on

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interviews with experience all of this

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was based on my particular work with

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various experiences and you know

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speaking with experiences both in my